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[music] [music] Right. Thank you for being here. Can I just acknowledge the uncomfortable [laughter] setting? [clears throat] I’ve met you one-on-one a few times. I’ve met you oneonone three times. I’ve met you many times oneon one and um you guys haven’t even met each other before. So, you know, uh maybe I can start with you, Trish. Uh I think the reason I invited you is because when we have our conversations, it feels like we really quickly go down to the first principles >> and that’s where the stuff moves.
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>> So maybe on that note, your who are you and tell Ridwan and Karin who you are and where what your background is inside. Lovely. So I’ve known Lochnner three, four, five months. Um, started at TCG in March last year, so actually only coming up for a year. And one of the first things we did was a Salesforce CRM implementation. Uh, long journey, which I’m sure we’re going to get to, but um, first off connected with Lachlan and said, “Listen, I don’t know what I’m in
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for. Let’s have some coffees.” And, um, I’m now chief strategy and growth at Korea. phenomenal business. Proudly South African. Do a little punt out. Shout out to all of our drivers out there. But um yeah, I’m really looking forward to connecting with you guys on lessons learned and starting to build the community that I know you very desperately want to start engaging with and growing. >> Yeah. And the cool thing what I like about it is there’s businesses in South Africa who’s going to be hopefully
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listening to this who can relate with the Gury guy. >> Yeah. and with it’s not international content and these international stories that we that we hear all the time. >> Um, Rewan, I remember I think I met you the first time at the live health offices in that big fancy boardroom. Uh, different setting to this. And I remember uh the first time we started chatting one-on-one, you really have a a love for the for the patient, you know, because a lot of people speak about, you know, they want to do A, B, and C, but
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are you always stood out as but what about this patient journey? What about this patient? How are the patient going to experience this? Um, so every, you know, these system thinking conversations don’t always end up there. >> And that’s what I liked about chats with you. And then we kind of almost kind of became work friends and then we have a coffee every now and then I think when we emotionally need it. [laughter] >> Um and that’s where we are. So maybe for Trish and for Karen just your background
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and your who you are. >> Yeah thanks. Um I guess similar to you Trish we kind of crossed paths uh when we did a big installation with Salesforce. I mean, I’ve been in health care for 25 years, but I’ve really had the same passion and the same focus for all of that time, just with different employers. And so, I guess when when when I met Loch, I was fairly clear about what I needed in terms of what we were doing in the healthcare space and it needed to be patiententric. it needed to be in the healthcare space virt
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between what I guess historically gets used in all other industries and actually never in the healthcare space because actually the patient never seems to be the the center of the equation which is fairly baffling but but kind of is just the reality right so I have a deep passion for the healthcare space but also importantly just to kind of push the health care space to a point where actually for the patient it’s about the outcome and not about the things that happen to the patient that seems to be the default in the industry.
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>> Yeah. And I guess technology and being able to say when you cut through all of that, how do you make the patient at the center of that? Unfortunately, you can’t do it without uh choosing the right enabling technology. >> Yeah. And I think for both of you before I get to a Karen, what’s which stood out for me in our conversations and you you weren’t just called, you know, what’s the systems going to be like? you incorporated well you brought me into the real reality of your life in with
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the people >> and the emotions and the drama and the all those little parts that really affect >> your intentions of what you want to want to get done. So um Karen knows me probably better than anybody. Basically I always joke and says she’s my Tuesday wife. >> Oh wow. And then I’ve got a a rest of the week uh my wife and my wife always jokes. She always said well she doesn’t joke actually quite serious when she says just tell Karen to explain this to you and then you’ll believe it.
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So the reason I brought in Karina is because I’ve I’ve walked a path with her in amazing path. And I think what I really enjoy about you is when you listen to conversations and when you listen to me, you pick up small little things that other people don’t pick up cuz she really listens. And I think I’m excited about the questions you might be asking or the stuff you might be bringing to the table. So maybe just for Rewan and Trish, your background and who you are. >> Yeah, thanks. Um I I’m a psychologist.
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Um I’m excited to hear and learn because I I think that what you guys do is so far far away from what I do every day. But I think what excited me when Lochner spoke about the podcast and um what convinced me to come is I think uh there’s a lot of people that want to try stuff, do stuff, make a difference. It’s something I hear often is I just want to make a difference. Um but then they get swallowed up by politics or systems or performance demands. M >> um so I’m excited about what you said
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earlier about just being authentic and really hearing what it is that you guys experience. What’s the things you tell your partner when you go home tonight? [laughter] >> Um and and what you’ve learned. So I’m excited to learn. Thanks for inviting me. [snorts] >> So in short, guys, I think we spoke about this earlier. What I want to try and stick to in this well [clears throat] you don’t have to but we can try and stick to this theme is we’re in a it feels like we’re in a
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crossing point in South a reflection point inflection point in South Africa and I think it’s important to have a South African conversation. Um I’m a massive passion and I love our country and I know each of you do as well and I think that’s another reason uh why you’re here. There’s a lot of people I would have liked to speak to, but they don’t share that same passion for the country and its and its people. And what I’m seeing and why I think this conversation is important is there’s
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people out there making decisions as we speak, expensive decisions >> to try and build their businesses, not knowing that they’re possibly going down a path that you’ve walked down before. >> That might be the wrong path or an expensive path. And the ideas here is to share some of those war stories, some of the stuff we’ve learned. Yours is going to be probably more technical as a architect type thinking, but also the the emotional people side. Uh Trish, yours is much more revenue, you know,
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you’re a driver of of performance and and bigger operational parts of the business. So if I can maybe start with that, um there’s a tension out there that I can feel in every conversation I have. is between being uh patient, >> doing the right things when building these systems and your businesses and this panic of I need to beat the competition and get to this AI whatever. I don’t even know what the end point of that is. I don’t think anybody knows what the end point of that is. But
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there’s people chasing that that thing and there’s one or two people that I know is saying listen stop. I know that’s where we need to go, but I first need to get this right for my customers and for my business. So, I mean, you’ve you’ve gone through that journey uh in a quite a mature market, which I think the health space, the healthcare space is quite interesting because they’ve had the funds and the capital for years to invest in these big systems and try and get to this stuff. Where where are you
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in this process? everyone. >> I mean I I think let me first start off by saying that I think the customers or any tech implementation as you know log is very very expensive >> full stop doesn’t matter who the fun isn’t matter how much money there is and I think that >> that’s always been the thing that struck me >> in healthcare though we we’re late to technology very very late I mean I think that >> uh there’s always been the systems that get the providers paid those are good
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you know what I mean the systems that manage the system have been very absent. >> And I think for me a lot of that has been because there’s never been an impetus to do it because ironically in your introduction like in healthcare the revenue argument doesn’t align with the outcome argument. You know what I mean? making patients uh better and giving them better outcomes doesn’t necessarily mean for the provider in the current paradigm that that is more revenue in the short term. Right? And so we’ve
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always had this challenge in in in moving the industry forward is that how do you move it forward with this facts and the evidence and whatever that this is actually where the industry needs to be while understanding that there’s a whole bunch of other incentives at play. Right? >> So in my sense is that technology has always been difficult to adopt in the management of health care because of that. And so my job has always been to understand you have to lead with evidence. You have to lead with
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competence. You have to lead with excellence. But that that is almost always insufficient. It’s like it’s the hygiene, you know. It’s almost like if you’re not excellent, if you’re not clear, if you don’t have the substance, you don’t even begin to play the game. Yes. >> But it’s all the emotive stuff, right? And and I guess it’s the things about what that means to the people. Whose incentives are you affecting, right? You know what I mean? How’s the doctor
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getting paid? How’s the director of uh of a listed company’s uh bonuses for that for that year? How do people feel? Right? We talk about adoption like you’re going to change how a thousand people interact and work with technology now. So >> what I found is that this journey is one of a put the rational and the evidence, but actually all of the management is at the emotional level. It’s about the humans. It’s about that layer of understanding how you navigate that and then having this blind optimism that you
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know you’re doing the right thing and that it it’s a step towards where you wanting to go. Right? >> I’ve always felt like in healthcare we’re fighting for the patient while everybody else is fighting to to essentially >> keep the status quo going as long as possible. >> It’s very tough. It’s that tension. It’s like >> let’s milk this thing until we can’t anymore and then we’ll change, right? >> And I think one of the things I’ve
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learned later in my career is that how do you put the and on the table cuz that’s the only way you go forward. You know what I mean? And the end is in that emotional block, right? Which is, hey, we’re preserving your incomes, we’re preserving your incentives and stuff, but we’re also making the system better. And I think that only in embracing that and that paradox of we can actually do good and do well and and that’s always been the thing that the tension and unfortunately technology is
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an expensive purchase >> in pursuit of that aim. >> Yeah. >> And that’s how when we met like for me it’s never about the technology, right? >> It’s like I like people think if we’re going to put this thing in why are we doing that thing? What is it going to do? How does it fit in? Do we understand the question that we’re trying to solve for? And I think that’s always been the thing. So in healthcare, this tension of justifying the technology is always this
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third fourth order thing, >> but actually it’s all the work prior to that, right? Where I would imagine in other industries it’s a little bit more primary, right? It’s like, hey, this thing is going to change X and it’s got Y revenue. And so in healthcare, you’ve never had that. >> Okay. >> That ability. >> Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear if I understand you right. Like you’re almost saying there’s changes coming but because of the resistance to to change you have to take
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it slower. >> Yes. >> So you almost need to find a way to get the providers, the patients to trust you that the change will still be in their best interest. >> Absolutely. >> But how do you do that? I don’t know if that’s the case. I I I spent I I I I founded a company uh 10 years ago and I left it about 6 years ago and as I was leaving the company I went to Giggali Rwanda and I was they invited me to talk at a conference and this guy stood up and he was speaking about education. It
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was the most sentinal moment in my professional career. He stood up and he said you know we wanted to change education and we had this great ideas and we came in with this plans and nobody was caring about why what we wanted to change. Then we went back and we said actually let’s understand the existing educational system and do it as best as we can. And he said when we did the existing system excellently it gave us the license to change the system >> and that lesson never left me. So when
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when when I tackle every problem and the way my portfolios were were always constructed is that the first thing I always made sure is that what runs the business what’s important to them now what the current system actually dictates I do that exceptionally well in fact better than I do everything else >> and then the change is easy right because then you’re almost buying a ticket to hey okay >> I’m not it’s almost think about the emotive layer hey actually he’s caring
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or they doing what a business needs. Oh, okay. And they want to do this other thing. Cool. It’s fine. >> And so you buy the emotional space by actually being excellent at what the current thing is. And all interesting point >> and it’s warts and all. And once you do that, I’ve bought myself years of political runway because you what you do is that you demonstrate that >> it’s consistency and competency. That’s >> compet. And I’m I’m respecting where we
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at at the moment. I’m not saying, hey, >> that’s a new world. >> You see this a lot, man? Especially with new brooms coming into a company like [clears throat] just out of principle, >> like scratch. >> And then that that >> you see that somebody that comes into a new role is my pet peeve. Sorry. >> If they come in and they say everything this company’s been doing is and we’re going to do it this way, they’re going to fail. >> Yes. >> Yeah.
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>> Because you have a thousand other people that’s been doing it that way. But we spoke about it earlier this morning in saying that kind of predictability, consistency, it’s things that calm the nervous system >> and that’s the foundation of safety and trust. >> Yes, >> absolutely. >> I like what you’re saying. >> Your opinion on that. So, as I’m listening, right, I know there’s statements out there that like tech’s 20% of the transformation and the
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other 80% is the human piece, but what I love what you’re saying now, right, if that tech piece is not there, if it’s not done well, you you’re not out of the gates, right? And I think that’s that’s what I’ve seen is you’ve really got to make sure that you do the basics well and you get that credibility over the line. If you don’t have the credibility, you know, like LNA, you and I have had chats. Transformation is hard. Okay. And and I spend a lot of time reflecting on
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why is it hard by its nature. You’re changing the definition of good. So yesterday I did something really well and I was good at that and I got paid for it and that was good. Now you’re saying to me good changed. If you think in your own life when somebody says the definition of good just changed. You were maybe running six minutes. Okay. Now someone says try 5 minutes 30 like it’s not easy right so I know you were also asking me what does a transformation leader do like what is it it’s how do you hold
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that line but you only get the permission to hold the line >> if you’re doing the basics well right so I can’t ask you to change the definition of good if I’m the coach and I’m not even arriving at practice on time so it’s this it’s a dance all the time between credibility And and I like your word predictability and I actually want to come back to that, but how do we get that credibility that earns you the right to change the definition of good? >> And I think that’s that’s the dance,
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right? And for me, it is a bit of a dance. >> But isn’t that the problem at the moment is this especially with this AI hype? >> Yeah. that the you I don’t know if you experienced this yourself when you engage with customers or um other uh businesses it feels like everybody’s now trying to shoot this >> uh they’ve got an app now or a WhatsApp you can chat with this AI but they don’t they don’t have your number right >> yeah it 100% >> oh my package is not delivered you’ve
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got this amazing piece of tech but my package is two days late or whatever the case might be >> how do you feel about um maybe read one get going back to the basics and I think >> that’s a big point for me when I speak to our customers a lot is like okay cool you want to do this and you want to do that but what about this foundation the the technicalities that you can’t >> I’m going to give you a a one of my favorite books in the world is the hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy
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>> I just reread it now over the holidays I had lots of time and lots of thinking space and I love that book only because of your question is that they go off and they they create this monster machine and it churns for thousands hundreds of years to come up with a question and it pops out and it says 42 right then everybody says what’s the question >> and that’s the problem if you want first principles >> nobody wants to take the time to define what the question is almost said damn
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sorry but [laughter] >> first is like what are you trying to achieve what are you trying to do here what’s the question. You know, I think that one of the things I’ve seen through my career is that you have a lot of people that do and they do in the mold of what they think is good, but very few people actually think and want to ask the questions, right? >> And the reality is that first principles dictates that you always have to understand what question you’re answering, right? There’s this amazing
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lost interview of Steve Jobs. I don’t really watch a lot of them, but this one clip they they asked him, he was about mid20s. The the the interview asked him, Steve, what made you think you can run a multi-million dollar company? >> Yeah. >> He looks at the guy and his characteristic to like think through, oh, what does this guy ask me? And he says, it’s very simple. I actually can think. I question everything. >> Yeah. >> When I see something in front of me, I question why are we doing that? Why do
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we need a CRM? What is it going to do? How’s it going to help? How’s it going to fit? You know, and and the reality is that you see so many times that tech is being adopted because people think tech is cool. >> It’s the Joneses. >> But the people that are implementing it, if you’re not asking questions, you don’t know what you I’ve seen this. I mean, I’ve had a thousand sessions internally to say, “Guys, what is it that we want this thing to do?”
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>> Yeah. >> Be clear. Once you know what it can do, then you know how to implement it properly and then you know how to to to actually monitor this thing. But otherwise, it’s just a futile exercise, right? >> And that’s one part of it cuz even if you get to that point, staying on that >> if you don’t know the why and you don’t know what question you’re answering, how do you continue the journey >> because what’s happening this journey is never a three-month journey. It’s a 6
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month, 12 month, two two years, 3 years plus journey. and halfway through it there’s a CIO swap >> or a new guy and he’s got a AI or a tool >> and all of a sudden there’s drift away from that original >> I like you know we like the word executive intent >> um and I think it’s worth going back to that uh I wanted to ask you Trish the dynamic of working with people >> because the CEO the people that we all work with even in your previous jobs that tension between what they want and
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what you need know that needs to be done >> cuz you know what needs to be done but the shareholders the new equity partners whatever how do you manage that because there’s not there’s not a lot of people’s got the call it the balls to [laughter] to tow the line right stay stay there >> ln so you know like I’ve I’ve thought a lot about h how do these dynamics play out and what is the role Firstly I think is you got to recognize your own ego right so so there are times
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I know people always say politics kills these things and what happens if the politics are bad do I leave if there’s a change in CIO and in in like thinking about today and and what would I want if I was going to mentor people what was I going to say right for me be aware of who you are and your ego that you bring to the table right because that’s problem number one the second thing is you are not expected to do this alone. So even your your question to me is so how do I have the balls it it isn’t that
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right if we are aligned on why are we doing this as a business then I mean you’ve seen that at career guy we had a CIO transition and it’s almost been seamless almost >> because I’ve been very deliberate about saying it’s not me this is a team thing and how do I do this the minute I feel like I’m isolated on on my own it’s almost a check for myself that says I’m probably dropping the fall somewhere because this shouldn’t feel like I’m leading this thing. I almost feel like my job is a
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little bit of the therapist, right? Is to say I was thinking about like what’s my aha moment? Like when do I step in and when do I put on my high heels and go this is my moment, right? Funny enough, it’s when things get hard because now I’ve got to look at this and go what just happened? Is it someone’s ego a play? Did we drop the ball and credibility? Are the teams overwhelmed? And so my moment is to diagnose when did we go out of alignment? Do we need to stop? And it it’s important for for us all to go
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transformation’s hard. We’re stepping up. There are going to need to be times when you pause and you go, okay, you know what? We need a recognition moment. We’re halfway in, right? How do we do those? So I think how do we how do we make sure that this is a collective? How do we recognize that going in it’s going to be hard and there are going to need to be moments where we go, you know what, we’re going up the mountain today. We all going to just check in with each other. Are we still on the right track?
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So, mine is almost to be that therapist. >> Help me understand it. I’ve never been in corporate, right? So, how do you how do you know this is my ego or how do you figure out okay, what is is the team even on the same page or do you just think they’re on the same page? Like, how do you practically do that? Listen, now you’re going to know this better than me, right? But somewhere in my career, someone taught me the word change spine, >> okay? >> And this is how do you go from
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people that are working at the bottom end of a call center right the way up to the CO. So if you have to start and follow this conversation up to go, you know, Mary, you’re answering the phone. When things don’t go, who do you talk to? And they’re going to say, I talk to Susan. Susan. and and you you map out what they call the informal network in your business because there’s what we think is the formal one, but we all know it actually gets done through the informal one, right? So, kind of
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starting at Korea guy, one of my first things was just to try and see who’s that informal network. And funny enough, it’s not who you think it is. >> So, invariably there’s players that sit on the sideline, but that’s the flow of information. >> So, that’s where I went, right? So when things start to look like and and you can pick it up, things aren’t being signed on time, deliverables are being are late, someone sits in front of a screen and goes, “That’s not what I
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asked for.” And they lose their temper and they storm out the room. Right? Those moments, that’s when you go to that informal one and it’s a cup of coffee. And that’s why these conversations that I have with Lochner are so valuable, right? Cuz now I’m going to sit and go, “La, what did you hear?” and he will tell me he sat in the boardroom the one day and overheard a conversation with somebody and he said that conversation I overheard should never have happened. >> So it’s that informal way that I found
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to be like super valuable >> smokers balcony. >> It’s it’s the old smoker’s balcony. Exactly. So how do you find those >> so you can truly know what is happening in the company culture >> and then and listen I mean there’s techniques for these things right when you see a whole lot of frustration happening invariably tells you there’s a plan that’s missing if you see people are resistant it invariably tells you the incentives are not aligned he’s
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being incentivized on this she’s being incentivized on this so there techniques in the toolbox and maybe that’s part of speaker notes right is what are some of these techniques that are publicly available. I think the difference to when I started my career to where we’re at now, there are so many tools out there like the Amazon toolboxes are amazing. Like there are toolboxes coming out of all over. How do we make those available to the generation that’s coming into the workforce now to say
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when you’re seeing these things? So, it’s not I know you’re asking me like it’s it may sound like it’s witchcraft. It’s not actually. Some of this is just old-fashioned listening >> and humility >> and and listening. Genuine listening. >> I think that’s an important word. >> Yeah. >> Cuz what you spoke about earlier is your own ego. >> Yeah. >> To be in the right word is pride. >> How do I put that >> in my pocket? Am I willing to do that?
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>> Yeah. >> Um maybe for you cuz I mean in your world before I ask that question, is there anything you wanted to add on to? >> No, I wanted to add because I think I like the question, right? And I think it’s I mean partly you speaking about it Patricia I think the one thing I wanted to say you you dead right but the one thing that I learned is like it’s not personal you know what I mean it’s actually not personal and it comes back to the humility right the best definition of humility I’ve ever heard
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of Bnee Brown is that humility is about doing what’s right and not being right >> that’s actually humility >> people think humility is this kind of self annihilistic kind of no no it’s actually can you do what is right and not necessarily for you to be right. Right. So, it’s never personal, man. But to Trisha’s point is like this system, this organism, it’s got patterns how things are done. It’s got incentives everywhere. >> It’s got kind of shortterm memory.
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>> It’s got its own little >> It’s actually an organism, right, that’s playing. So >> you once you reduce the ego and you’re like, “Hey, this thing is not personal.” Okay. Then you’re like, “Okay, let me look for the patterns.” That’s always to your point. Where’s the patterns? I mean what is the guys what is the who’s the guy you need to speak to whatever right and and I think that’s important so >> there’s a system there’s a pattern
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there’s behaviors there’s incentives and you have to move beyond the hey they’re attacking me to the system is resisting can I understand how to deal with the system >> but I wanted to make another point and there’s something that’s been >> as I’ve evolved as you think you’re winning this thing man [laughter] >> as you think you’re winning the change battle you’ve been battle hard And I mean I’m many years down now. >> The thing that struck me though is that
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after excellence after working with relationships after navigating >> after making the change now accepted and going and once you have excellence >> it no longer becomes about the change then it becomes about you and then the game changes cuz then all of a sudden you’re like what the hell happened now? This thing has changed. Things are right. people are accepting and now the problem is that the person or the entity and I liked how you said it’s not about you >> but then the person driving the change
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becomes the problem >> you and that’s how it gets derailed so you see this thing is like it’s got it’s like personal then it’s personal it’s not personal in beginning because all the doing the system is responding and people think that is personal now >> you understand the system but once you’ve understood that and you now and now cuz remember change is Good. And even if change hits the bottom line, everybody’s happy. >> Somebody’s activated this change. And
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now that person is the focus of the problem. The problem becomes the person then and then there’s another level of >> how do you navigate that personally, right? Because now it’s at a much higher level. And so my only point is though is that like this thing is so multifaceted that I think as a leader and as executive and I like the way you talk about toolboxes. It’s it’s it’s it’s never static, man. >> You almost like this thing evolves. It takes on another another It takes on a
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life on its own and at some point you have to recognize your >> But this is interesting. So why do you think why do you think it’s like that? Is it because the leader that’s like pushing for the change invests so much that it almost becomes like a part of you and suddenly when it’s done you don’t know how to deal with the loss of this thing that you’ve been driving? >> No, I think I think it instills power to the person driving the change and >> so so you get a little chap on your
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shoulder >> because people want the power, right? So it’s all becomes the politics again. So what happens is that you just create another a different level of of of human engagements. All I’m saying it’s multi-layered. My only point is that if we think for one moment that is a straight line. So there’s a way of doing change well >> buying the book understanding having your whatever even that is not enough. That’s all I’m trying to say there. this thing morphs and so as a I think as a
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person that drives this as a person that like you must always ever be present that >> how is it morphing and what’s my role in that right >> because even if you you’re humble it doesn’t matter if you’ve if you’ve garnered a lot of power through the process now you have to understand what does change now look like how does that play out how do I make this thing live beyond me and that’s what a lot of people then don’t do right >> one of the things that I’ve always
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believed is that the failure actually at the end is if you don’t make the change live beyond you. >> If you’re able to do that then we have progress. >> But if change ends with you and you become the problem that’s worse even for me because then you’ve lost. And so actually my biggest lesson as I’ve come through my career is that just never be the problem >> and make the change live beyond you and that unfortunately sometimes as sacrifices. I was listening to an interview the
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other day between I think it’s David Shapiro and what’s his name from Biz News. Anyway, um very interesting and at some point they like where are all the business titans? >> Yeah. Where’s all these big, you know, individuals that used to be these running these big companies? And I’m wondering out of this conversation because business has changed from a CEO getting on the phone, phoning a supplier saying, “I want this 10 cents down.” And he takes over the market the next month.
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So that was that big big ego. Then the next period we saw was this tech or the techies became the CEOs, right? >> And they by virtue more introverted, >> quiet people. But those were the new CEOs cuz it was a it became this tech business. >> And what I’m hearing is that the people is really moving change and really growing businesses in the South African context aren’t really both, but you’re able to spot patterns >> and those those goat bars that you spoke about.
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>> You’re not in the CEO sitting in his glass >> thing anymore. It’s also not really the techy CEO anymore that Mark, what do you call them? >> Yeah, the Zuckerber. >> Yeah. Yeah. They’re still there, but in a more mediumsiz, medium to enterprise size business. It’s not really those guys anymore. And think about Michael Yordon. He was this when they FnB went through this massive thing. Those guys who understood tech well really moved it forward. >> But is it are the Titans gone because
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the Titans are quiet? They are working. The stuff is moving. Even in this difficult economy, some businesses are moving forward, but you’re not seeing these people. They’re quiet in the in the background really moving stuff forward tech wise and people wise. >> Sure. L I see a a a leadership layer now that’s very people centric. Um I don’t know that I know exactly where the Titans are gone. My gut says they are investing in a new set of leadership. It’s a fascinating young market that’s coming
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in now, right? So, so the guys that are joining the workplace are all techsavvy, right? So, they’re all mobile friendly. They’re all doing chat GPT. Um the the kind of leader that’s got to get the most out of this new workforce is very people centric. Um what we’re seeing is people are a lot more fickle as well. They’re very happy to get some experience, move their career, get some other experience. So what what I’m seeing is being really successful in the workplace are people that can connect at
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a human level. I think tech’s become this given, right? So it’s a it’s a really interesting balance as to without tech the organization feels slow and feels a little bit democ is is the right word. >> Um things are disconnected. So but tech feels like it’s a it’s a given now. Um even training you know we we talk about like I’m digressing significantly but training you know we we don’t even think about that much in the workplace people now it must be intuitive if it’s not
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obvious what I need to do well then frankly what you built must go back and and redo that right so the way people are engaging with their jobs now really is do I have meaning do I connect with the place so it feels like there’s a different genre of leaders that are in I think those big titans are still there >> possibly sparking the business ideas and investing in the money but the ones that we’re seeing on the stage are are different that that’s my very two cents worth but >> um I I would need to actually go and do
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some proper homework. Yeah. >> Yeah. My unintelligent view is that we’re actually in this transition, right? Which is like though there’s lot of tech, we’re not building a lot. We’re not producing or creating a lot in Louis, right? And I think we’re in this transition where I think that we had many years of building stuff and I think people are watching on the sidelines, man. I think so. I think there’s we’re almost like in this transition where a lot of the leaders now are holding down
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existing stuff, man. What’s going to be the what’s going to be the >> I mean you were speaking earlier right like we’re in a shift here right where there’s there’s an opportunity here that I think we all recognize understand metrics are where they never been before right look where the rand is look where the gold price is but even just look what people are doing around the world I spoke about the France example earlier like they’re just saying from next year sometime no more teams right like we’re
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getting to this phase where people are actually going to take the initiative And I think in essay that’s where we find ourselves, right? I think we’re going to get my view personally I have the sense that we’re going to get a birth of a whole bunch of new leaders in this space. >> And I think if there’s anything we can talk about is >> so the people in the workforce now are the future >> leaders. >> What are these people? I mean you consult with them every day.
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>> Why are we working so hard to get them to buy into our stuff? >> Yeah. you know so because that’s really difficult I mean you asked me yesterday do you have a change manager like 10 years ago what change manage I always used to joke and say if you can’t do change management change management >> uh now you need to really like massage stuff really slowly and that’s got its own overhead and cost >> why do we need to do that why are people so fickle >> your word
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>> I don’t know but I do know that the young people coming And some things I find interesting about young adults I work with um going into the workforce is their awareness of their mental health and >> the need they have for companies to acknowledge that um a a dynamic I don’t know as a millennial I guess myself I don’t really understand with how how they relate to work you spend hours and hours at work so it’s an important part of your life. Um, but it’s I don’t know if by fal you mean
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they’re almost like sensitive to how toxic is my work environment? Does anyone actually care about me? Um, >> was it always that way? Is that a Don’t you think it’s just a human nature to think it’s just more audible now at the moment? >> So, let me give you a perspective language now. >> I’m seeing time as the as the scarce commodity. So, if I if I reflect on Why change manager? We’re too busy. So I think and and it talks to the the the price tag of tech. So if we go right
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back to the beginning, right? You’ve made a big investment in this process that we want to change. We know we’ve cut time out of our timelines. There’s no doubt about it. You and I both know we we’re up against this thing. So time is the scarce resource. And the generation that we’re changing now wants to know what’s in it for me. >> I feel like we had the luxury of time on previous implementations. It was look at my early career, right? It was nothing to say a project’s going to take 18
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months. That’s just how it was. 18 months. If you called less than 18 months, somebody said to you made a mistake, it’s 18 months, right? We’re talking now about six months, four months for for some of the the work that we’re wanting to do now. So, so we’ve we’ve really really slimmed that down and in the courier guy style, we want to be bold and we want to take risks. So, it’s it’s completely within our culture and we’re happy and we’re going to give it a go. The people that we’re working
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with now are dealing in instant gratification. We all know that in everybody’s house, we don’t even watch the same channel anymore. You’re going to watch Netflix, you’re going to watch a podcast, everybody chooses to suit themsel. So I think the the generation we’re training says what’s in it for me now we need a human to come and go you know what Karine this is what changes for you know you used to do this because now you don’t want to read this on a memo because you’re going to go sorry
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that’s disrespectful to me I’m a human come and talk to me as a human so now funny enough I think time and this human commodity I know Simon Synynic’s got some work on it recently to say as an airline the platinum status actually gets you a human again. Everybody else when you’re phoning the contact center, it’s the normas belief and and you must go and you know and actually the humans are coming in as the VIP support service. So I think it’s going to be this time and human connection where
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that’s what’s going to be valuable. So so that’s I just it’s only kind of come through to me now, but I think that’s what I’m seeing. >> But what do what do you tell people if they ask you what is in it for them? what what can you offer apart from >> listen we’ve actually got so much >> salary for you >> listen all of these uh implementations right L is the first guy to say to me tr like make sure that we are making it easier for the human on the other end so
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I can tell you it’s going to be phenomenally easier >> but that’s for the customer right >> no even for the guy in the call center for the guy in the call center we’ve removed a whole lot of you have to click yeah then you have to go over there then you have to do this so like the new process is super easy. But he wants to be told that. He doesn’t want to just read that and he doesn’t want to just see that on day one. He wants to be engaged as a human that says, you know,
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Mary, on the 30th of March, this is what we’re going to do. This is what it’s going to look like. You know, you used to do that thing. You know, you used to click these five things. It’s now these things. And then to re refund was right in the beginning. Did we even ask Mary what she wanted? By the way, because Mary, you know what? You know, we we’ve got this thing coming. what do you actually want? And Mary’s going to go, you know what’s a real frustration for me? And that’s where
00:42:36
choosing the partner that you use for a technology is so so so important cuz now it comes back to right where Rita one started to say, did we even ask Mary? >> Okay% >> you know and and I think that’s the process for me that that’s where you can win this or lose this. >> So is Mary heard and does Mary feel safe? >> Yes. And she wants to be human heard. Mary doesn’t want to go on a survey. I’m like survey response rates are what like 2% nobody can be >> you know is she heard
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>> I wanted to take a different view on the fickle part. >> I think if I take a a positive view of contribution now just questioning >> and damn they should be >> like does this school system even make sense? Mhm. >> My son brought me this slip to sign and it says me and my son went through the code of conduct and we’re going to adhere to it. >> And I say, “Where’s the code of conduct?” So he brings it to me and I read this thing. I’m saying, “Okay.” I
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say, “What do you think about it?” He says, “No, I don’t know if I want to sign.” [laughter] I say, “What do you mean?” He’s 11 years old, right? So I’m like, “Why not?” >> And he’s like, he’s rambling, rambling, rambling. cuz they don’t really know what’s bothering them, but they know they’re not happy. They’re not bothering. So, he says, >> you know, actually the real problem is that they say they want you to have fun,
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but when I read this thing, there’s nothing about having fun. You know what I mean? And I read it again with his lens, right? I was like, “Oh, this guy’s right.” >> I read it and it’s like >> everything is punitive. We come from a mindset where you told us what to do, our generation, you just do it. It’s punitive. You will do this, this, this or else or else you fire whatever. They’re like, “Whoa, >> you’re telling me I must come to school.
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First of all, I’m choosing whether I go to school >> and now you want me to sign this thing and he can’t see anything that deals with fun and how he’s going to enjoy this experience.” >> And he still hasn’t signed yet, right? And so I’m saying it’s the same thing, right? >> They’re questioning the school. They’re questioning work. This going to work, going to physical places is gone now, right? You can’t get a tech guy that you get fulltime in the office anymore. I
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don’t know. Maybe Lochner can get those but they they don’t exist like they’re questioning and and so they should right >> and so let me take a fairly utopian view when you take AI to its utopian if you read science f like one of the utopian views is like okay it will be the end of scarcity right to be abundance everybody you can see to everybody’s basic needs and give everybody a basic income and people can pursue what they want to right I think a lot of this generation is already there
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>> in what you would like You’re like that makes sense. If AI can do all of these things again why why must >> why must I get up at 7 why must get up at seven why must I work out why must I do this if I want to know something now I ask this it tells me so all I’m saying is that >> fickle is also another way for me that says hey they actually >> questioning the status score in a way that we never did >> and for my money that’s very good it’s just us old people don’t know how to
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deal with it >> and I have to I literally have to say okay guy let’s speak through your code conduct and I have to say because he needs to sign by Friday, right? So, I mean, I’m just saying >> it’s [laughter] a different thing, >> but but I think it is that it is going to circle back to are we seeing people for who they are >> and and are we truly listening to people? >> Because I think that’s what companies should be selling internally. >> Yeah.
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>> And this change management process and say, listen, we don’t really have to do this. We can continue on spreadsheets. >> Yes. >> But we want to try and make life >> Yeah. be more bearable for you because life is generally unbearable for most people and I think that’s a another point to maybe focus on which is also a South African thing. So uh there’s a one thing big thing in the in the first principles that I always like to focus on is is I changed my wording from
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mental health >> to mental fitness. >> Okay. Cuz in the workplace, what I see when you speak to customers or people that you work on on projects, uh, mental health is something that you either have or you don’t. >> Cuz if you say, “I’m either mentally healthy or or I’m not.” >> And if I identify with I’m not mentally healthy, then I’m really in a difficult space and I’m treading water. >> Yeah. >> You guys [clears throat] obviously do
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some stuff right cuz you’ve gotten to this point in your career. you’ve uh not just previously but you’re currently doing exciting stuff. What do you do for your mental fitness to be the example to be the energy >> to fight the right fights to negotiate at the right points to see the patterns to be just present enough >> in the day to actually see the pattern cuz it’s that’s that’s not easy. It’s difficult. I mean, I have I have one of my biggest hacks every in life is that I
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love running and I love listening to books and I can do them together. >> And I I listen usually on two two and a half speed. So, it’s a little bit crazy. So, [laughter] I I >> Can you run at four 4 minutes a kilometer at that? >> No, but like think about it like I’m doing I’m doing an hour of running and I’ve listened to two and a half hours of a book. So, I can get through multiple books, right? It’s the biggest hack that I’ve ever and I think like for me as a
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leader and it’s the point right it’s like everything is evolving all the time your perspective things around you and if as a leader you not evolving I think I think mental wellness and I like that and mental is about how you constantly understanding yourself but that and that which is around you and I think that’s important because both are moving right >> and I mean two of my kids um on the spectrum that I found over the last few years and that the most important thing you understand as I’m parenting them now
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is that there’s two elements. The one is how do you regulate the environment for them but also importantly how do you make or allow them to regulate themselves >> and you need to know what to use when and I think it’s no different to us as adults as executives whatever and I always maintain that you need to understand what do I need to regulate in my environment >> and how do I navigate that and how do I regulate myself how when I’m in this massive meeting and the things goes out
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and I’m like hey That’s the moment right now. >> I just want to dive into that a step lower. Why do you think you’ve got the right >> to regulate >> myself? Yes. Why? I mean, why do you think you’ve got the influence on this world around you? Cuz I think a lot of people feel powerless like >> they feel like they just being blown. You know, my boss said this, my wife said this. >> What What’s the step down? I mean you it feel it sounds like you feel like you’re empowered to regulate
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yourself and your environment >> 100%. >> At which point did you get there? >> Uh through lots of sessions at the sake [laughter] of >> Great plan. Great plan. >> Yeah, we’ll put in your we’ll put in a number in the in the in the notes. >> I don’t know. I I think you get to a point I’ve been through that where like if you don’t regulate you go to a very particular point which is unsustainable. We’ve all been there. I think you like I think it’s a it’s the other way around.
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How can you not regulate yourself for your own good? >> I I always tell people everybody should be in therapy. Our life is so complex. So much things. >> I don’t know. For me, it’s been like if you don’t regulate yourself, everybody else is going to do that for you. And why would you want to why would you give away your power to somebody else? It’s not about you thinking you have the power. I think it’s more the opposite. Why I would want to give my well-being and my state of mind away to somebody
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else? >> Yeah, >> that is ridiculous. I can’t even think why I would do that. >> Yes. >> And then secondly, why would I be in environments that doesn’t serve me? Right. I’m going to pick on you and I’ve I’ve learned this from you initially and you repeated it again now. >> You sit across a customer and at some point you walk away, right? >> Cuz in your mind, you’re saying if I’m not going to regulate my environment, this thing doesn’t matter how well I
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regulate myself, >> this thing is going to kill me. Right? Yes. >> So I think if you don’t do that balance as a leader, you’re dead. And you have to. >> Yeah. >> It’s like if you don’t, then somebody else is in control. That customer is in control. That boss is in control. >> And I don’t know, as a as a human, once you let that go, then there’s no value, right? And so though I’ve always known it intuitively through my kids and and understanding the spectrum is like once
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you get that that perspective, how do you help them regulate the environment and how do you help them regulate themselves? I think it’s so liberating. >> I think something that’s important for us to just label is the ability to regulate is a skill. >> It’s something you have to learn how to do. It’s not just some people are magically able to do it and others are not. It’s something whether you learn it in therapy or if it was modeled to you by maybe like a parent or whatever. But
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it’s a skill. And the second thing I’m hearing you say is it brings us back right to the beginning like slowing down, >> having patience, not being so performancedriven that it has to happen now and it has to happen quick. >> Not taking it personally. >> Not taking it. If you don’t regulate yourself, everything is possible. >> True. >> But I’m going to guarantee that we’ve all made those mistakes. >> Absolutely. >> So, so it’s almost easy to sit here
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>> in um the back nine of our career as I heard yesterday. >> Um I think we all made these mistakes, right? So, I mean, I can tell you I went through phases where I didn’t know how to self-regulate and I didn’t have the skills on my own mental health. Um, so I mean it’s I can tell you now the things that I did, but I I don’t some of it I think is maybe it’s a cycle of life. I I mean I’d love to know from you. Do you see young kids? Look, I can see it coming through
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schools now. I think there’s a lot more in schools now than there was certainly when I went to school. It was a very science, geography, history kind of curriculum. I think it’s changing now and I think that’s why we’re seeing kids push back. you know that then that wasn’t a skill that you saw coming through school. So I think you’re seeing some of that. I often ask myself, do you have to learn the hard lesson in order to figure out how to self-regulate? I I don’t know. It’s it’s a really
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interesting one for me. It’s another tension I think because in the one on the one end you you will automatically learn things if you’re wounded or you go through difficult um stages and and going through the wilderness is not a bad thing. Right? >> Uh but some people can go through the wilderness and they only get traumatized by it. They don’t necessarily learn a lot. >> On the other side it’s also be about being like um >> almost like going ahead of yourself prepping. That’s what I enjoy about
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about the youth. It’s not just in schools, but they use social media and the videos that they watch, they they have language, they learn how to do things before they are even in trouble. >> And I think if you can have both those, if you can equip yourself >> ahead of time and you can use those skills when you’re in the wilderness, >> then you then you learn then you get that beautiful integration which ends in wisdom, right? >> So it’s a pendulum, right? As you know
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as well. So we shift to the one side and then we shift to the other side. So I think we’re now in a place where the pendulum has shifted a lot a lot more people >> I’m empowered to to to your point question actually like people feel much more empowered now like hey >> I if I don’t what do you mean I have the right to choose where I go where I take that’s unheard of you know so I think we we we shift the pendulum I’m always I’m a strong believer in everything was like
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>> it’s always somewhere in the middle always. I’ve got two questions from our listeners. Um Trish, can I ask you >> first one? So for the listener who’s been burned before, who tried to lead change and got politically outmaneuvered or blamed when it didn’t show results fast enough, what would you say to them about trying again? >> Listen, so we’ve been I’ve been there definitely. The thing I want to say about being burned is you’ve learned and and you’ve been burned, right? So
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sometimes it’s almost like, oh well, what’s the worst that can happen? The same thing, you know. So hopefully you learn from that first one. Um, the second thing I want to say is I almost think if you feel like you got burnt, you were trying to do it alone. It is is my own self-reflection. You took too much on. You shouldn’t actually ever get to the point where results come down to one person. Not in a big deployment, not in a big project. And if you did your ego, I suspect like mine, I thought I
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was going to be the hero and I thought I was thought I knew everything and then didn’t work out because I didn’t involve the right people certainly in my own learning. I should have spread my my net wider. I should have listened more in the beginning. I should have gone I always believe you go slow in the beginning then allows you to go faster towards the end. If you come out of the gates and you think you know the answer, invariably you’re going to find out at the finish line you might have missed a
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few things. So LN I think my my advice here is go slower in the beginning. Build much stronger relations with the other people in the team and and make sure you don’t feel alone. If you’re feeling alone, you you haven’t cast your net wide enough. It’s either to build in in the case that I’ve done with you. How do I build that partner relationship? How do I bring my exco team on that journey with me if you’re feeling alone that that’s that’s >> when when things go wrong, you will be
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burned. >> Yeah. But if you’ve been burned, damn it, go again, right? But I also my last thing is you’ve got to love this. So I know for me I get out of bed being able to provide clarity for the business so that when things go wrong I can go that diagnosed conversation I had earlier. You’ve also got to know is this what you love doing. If you got burned and you go it’s I I’ve learned that that wasn’t me. Don’t try and force it again because it’s not for everybody. You’ve really
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got to be comfortable with being a servant leader. I know somewhere um was a a thought around what did I give up in my career for the job that I have now. As a transformation leader, you very often are a servant leader. So by that I mean I don’t run ops. I don’t run the contact center. My role is to make them look like heroes. If I want to be the hero, I need to go and be the ops guy or I need to lead customer services. I need to accept that my role is to make others successful. If I want to be that guy on
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the stage, then this probably isn’t the job for you. So, some of this is about saying, are you really truly prepared to be a servant leader and do this in service of others? Then then go for it. Yeah, >> I like it. Thank you. >> Um, okay. Rean, uh, last question to you. when you started all those years ago, >> this ambition you’ve had about the patient journey, what did you believe about business and transformation that you now know now realize is naive? Not not wrong necessarily, but incomplete.
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>> I think we touched on it earlier, but I’ll kind of reiterate is that uh definitely initially I thought you just had to be the cleverest oak >> and have the evidence and do what’s right. I think there were times in my career I was like what do you mean this thing is obviously the right thing it’s obviously everybody should doing why is everybody not understanding it I think that I think all of us get to that first realizations we’re like ah it’s not enough >> being clever is not enough being
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excellent is not enough being thorough is not enough and it’s to the point it’s that it’s all the other things it’s the incentives it’s the emotions it’s what you do to people so I think as you evolve and I suspect it’s for the person gets burnt as is that you’re learning, right? >> If you haven’t been burned, that means you probably haven’t been ambitious enough or haven’t been optimistic enough. And so, >> you go on again. And so, I think there
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were many projects where I was like, “What? What do you mean?” You know what I mean? And then you learn and you’re like, “Okay, it’s not about the nail.” >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I love it. >> It’s not about the nail. And and once you understand that, I think actually the naivity evaporates and you’re like, “Okay, >> I must do good, but actually there’s a whole process to manage here that is not just about the content.” >> That’s been the biggest like once you do
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that, I think your eyes open. You’re like, “Ah, okay. actually, there’s a lot of work.” >> Yeah. [laughter] >> And I think that’s the maybe a thing to to land us on is to get to that first principle, to get to the truth is a lot of work. It’s it’s it’s it’s digging for gold. you need to go through a lot of crap to get to the to that golden vein. And I think maybe this is a encouraging word for the people out there who’s uh considering possibly being burnt
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>> that you don’t have to get burnt. >> Uh but it takes a lot of work. You have to dig through all the crap and to get to the gold and it’s ongoing process. I want to thank you Trish. I want to thank you Rewan. I know all of you are busy, super busy people. that parcels are moving and so [laughter] are we Karen I know there’s people out there is actually really in need of your time right now and I really appreciate that you joined all the best with your endeavor >> love to see what you’re going to do
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Trish >> also same with you lots lots to do and Karine thank you >> appreciate it >> it’s been fun >> it was ler that’s how hour passes >> ler thank you l night >> okay [laughter] um Uh, I just want to quickly know if you walk out of here, what’s the [music] first thing you screamed at you? >> I I think this is a really really >> Is it work? Is it >> It’s not kids today. Yay. Um, no. L I actually think this is going to be super
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powerful, right? Because often as a leader it does feel like a lonely journey. And I think [music] >> [music]